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Could a black man trust a klansman

Could black voters trust a white candidate to fairly represent their interests even if he attended an anti-black church and was close friends with a prominent white minister who was famously hostile to black Americans?
 
This is another of John Hawkins questions and the answer is yes it is possible.
 
Hugo Black did much more than attend an anti-black church... he was a member of the KKK. When he was put on the Supreme Court people said we didn't need to buy him new robes, just dye his old ones black.
 
Hugo Black served on the Supreme Court where he did great work strengthening civil rights and civil liberties.
 
By the same token white america can trust Obama even if his Jeremiah Wright has made ugly comments in the past.
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20 questions part 1

Chasby sends me twenty questions for Obama.  Thw questions were posed by John Hawkins.  I can't speak for Obama, but I can give my own thoughts on the matter
 

1) You've made unifying the American public and putting our political divisions behind us one of the central themes of your campaign. Yet, National Journal ranked you as the single most liberal senator in 2007. So, which liberal beliefs of yours are you willing to give up for unity's sake?   None,  Unity does not mean every person thinks in exactly the same way.  I will unify the country behind important goals:  Economic recovery, health care, restoring Americas moral position in the world…. The point is that each person will bring what they have to the effort rather than simply tearing each other apart.----- Let's think about guns.  People who favor gun ownership realize that when guns are used in violent crimes it hurts their interests.  Guns don't kill, people do.  SO everybody has a vested interest in keeping guns out of the hands of people who would do harm.  With a common interest we can work together.

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Chasby responds: the end of the discussion on Wright

Again . . . VERY well written.

I have read these exact same comments from Abraham Lincoln before and I remember that I was horrified when I first read them twenty or so years ago. I will add that Lincoln was crafty in that he tailored his message to meet with the approval of his audience wherever he was.  He appeared to be enlightened and anti-slavery to anti-slavery audiences and he appeared to be indifferent or highly sympathetic to a pro-slavery position to pro-slavery audiences.  This was basically evidenced in his speech below.   SO . . . did Lincoln say what he felt that he needed to say for the purpose of freeing the slaves being willing to be two-faced as necessary in order to get himself elected President and further that objective??   Quite possibly.

* * *

Lincoln was likely one of the lesser racists of his time but he was still very much a racist by today's standards as evidenced by his statements that you quote.

* * *

I was NEVER raised to believe that racism was acceptable.  BUT . . . my aunts and uncles would occasionally make statementsreferring to blacks as "darkies" as well as other comments that would be considered horrific and inexcusable today.  They would also refer to blacks in disparaging ways that would NEVER be acceptable today in polite company.  Now to be fair, these same relatives are still alive today.  They are now in their late 80s and early 90s  and I have not heard any of them utter anything like this in the past 30 years.

They were likely much more open-minded regarding race than were their parents.  I KNOW that I am much more enlightened regarding race than they were and I am also sure that my kids are more enlightened than I am.  I remember that my older sister had a black boyfriend when she was in her 20s in the early 1970s and my parents were not pleased about this.  They weren't angry or anything but I would describe their reaction as mild shock and disappointment with my sister.   At the age of 12, I thought that it was a great thing.

I think that inter-racial marriage is wonderful and shows that this culture is moving beyond race. 

A lot of wonderful progress has been made over the past 50 years.
* * *

Obviously, I disagree with you about having a Democratic President.

 I think that the best thing would be to adopt the ideal of MLK Jr that we should have a society where all people "would be judged by the content of their character and NOT the color of their skin".  This means that we should strive to have a colorblind society.  This is means that reverse racism is wrong because it is still racism.   Affirmative action is also wrong because it is also reverse racism.  This cheats blacks by telling them that they are inferior and can't make it in the world based on their own merits.   They can only make it because the white man rigs the game in their favor.  Then people tend to assume that blacks often get what they get because of a handout and not because of merit.   This is NOT fair and creates racial division and strife.  This cheats blacks out of the satisfaction of earning their own way in the world.  Blacks that I have talked with resent affirmative action.   They want the world to know that they earned their own way, fair and square.

It's time. 

This nation can and should do this because this is the right thing to do.  This would do more to bring us to a post-racial society than anything else that we can do.  More affirmative action just keeps the racial strife alive and well.
 
------------------------------------
 
Toady says:  Just a comment... Chasby knows I do not believe that affirmative action is racism and he knows why.  I was surprised that he made that argument.  I let it go though.  Chasby continued to send me articles describing how Wright PROVES that Obama is unfit to be president.   I think though that there is not much more to say.
 
Chasby believes that the republican party is better for blacks than is the democratic party but he has never explained why they vote domocratic.  He doesn't want to say that blacks are stupid.  He suggests that democrats are so crafty ---blacks get fooled.  I think he knows this is fatuous and doesn't want to think it through.  I don't really think that Chasby could convince himself that blacks don't know what is best for them... and clearly thay have chosen. 
 
It's hard for Chasby sometimes.
 
Anyway I am very much looking forward to discussing other topics.
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generations race and a quote by Faulkner

While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its correctness-and that is the case of Judge Douglas's old friend Col. Richard M. Johnson. [Laughter.] I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.] I will add one further word, which is this: that I do not understand that there is any place where an alteration of the social and political relations of the negro and the white man can be made except in the State Legislature-not in the Congress of the United States-and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such thing myself, and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror that some such danger is rapidly approaching, I propose as the best means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home and placed in the State Legislature to fight the measure. [Uproarious laughter and applause.] I do not propose dwelling longer at this time on this subject.

 

  1. Lincoln  (Lincoln Douglas debate)
-----------------------------------------------------
The past is not dead and buried.  In fact it is not even past.
 
W. Faulkner
----------------------------------------------------
Chasby,
 

I remember watching a reenactment of the Lincoln and Douglas.   I was shocked.   I remember clearly looking at the TV screen and realizing that Abraham Lincoln was a racist.    There is no question about it.     He had never met a man woman or child who was in favor of social and political equality between negroes and whites !!

Abraham Lincoln may have been the most enlightened man of his time, a great man, but he clearly believed that negroes were inherently inferior to whites.  He says so.

 So did my Grandfather.  I remember when I was sixteen.  It was the summer of 1968 and I was in Vicksburg Mississippi.  The subject of race came up.  I stated explicitly and bluntly that blacks were equal to whites.  My grandfather said I was full of it.  He admitted that Martin Luther King was as smart as any man, but all you had to do was to look around and it was obvious that blacks were inferior to whites statistically and biologically.  My grandmother was always trying to get me to pick up young girls.  It was a little embarrassing.  One day I went downtown to buy some clothes.  I was VERY aware of blacks, but didn't recognize arabs as a race per se.  I wasn't terribly bright sometimes.  Anyway I got back home and my grandmother immediately wanted to know if I had met any girls.  Not wanting to disappoint her I said the daughter of the shop owner was cute.  Yes she was arab and my grandmother was horrified.  I had almost no idea what the ensuing conversation was about and just wanted it to end.  The next day my grandmother was quite embarrassed and she started encouraging me to ask the young girl out on a date.

Just a few years ago, I remember being at an airport, it was during my traveling days.  There was a black woman behind the counter and someone made a comment about a massage or something like that.  I playfully offered my services to the woman.  The comment was silly, not salacious at all, but walking away from the counter I realized I had never made a comment like that to a black woman ever before in my life.

My daughter would have no problem dating blacks.  I suspect if events had been slightly different she would have married a black guy that she knew.

My daughter is more enlightened than I about race, who is in turn, more enlightened than my parents, who is in turn more enlightened than my grandparents who is in turn more enlightened than Abe Lincoln.  It is progress.  Real progress.

BUT  Faulkner was right

" The past is not dead and gone. In fact it's not even past."

Rev Wright is stuck in the past.  As I said before he is in a state of sin.  I too am stuck, not like him though.

And so the past is still with us.  You say there is nothing to prevent a black man from working at Intel or going to Harvard.  But that doesn't mean that the effects of what happened in the 50's and 60's is gone… that the past is dead and buried. The past still continues.

If the past were dead and gone than Vietnam would not be an issue in the last presidential campaign.  If the past were dead and gone than race would not be an issue in this presidential campaign.

You are not right when you suggest that America has solved its race problems.  Those problems still exist.  If they didn't then people would not be talking about Rev. Wright.  Clinton wouldn't be saying that it's no big deal for Obama to win South Carolina, after all Jesse Jackson won that state too.  

Race issues still exist in America.  It is still very much worth discussing.  It is very much worth working on. 

What we don't need, IMHO, is the kind of rhetoric I have been hearing from the right.  The kind of rhetoric that says the five sentences uttered by Rev. Wright tell the whole story.  Yes what Wright said was divisive, but it was heard only by the members of that church.  It was heard only by the members of that church until Fox News and Talk Radio started playing the five sentences 24/7.  All black hate… all the time.  What is going on in the conservative media is to reinforce everything that is divisive and to use those statements to drive a wedge in our society.  Why would they do that you ask?  So that McCain can get 51%, just like Ruffini said.

Obama tries to get the discussion back on a healthy foundation and he is accused of throwing his grandmother under a bus.

No Charlie, the past is not dead and buried.  This country still faces serious issues with race.  It is time for a candidate who will help unite the country.

Rev Wright is not proof that Obama cannot unite this country.  In fact I believe the last couple of weeks is evidence to me that we very much need a democrat in the white house.

 

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Chasby proves Toady's point

Your defense of Obama was a fair amount more persuasive than was Obama's defense of himelf. 

* * *
(note Chasby misread Toady's e-mail and mistook Buchanan for Robertson)

I don't like Pat Robertson.  He is often very unecessarily and wrongly harsh.  He made some good points . . . BUT . . . his conclusion that black people should thank their lucky stars that they were enslaved in America for two centuries before they were then freed from slavery and then treated as sub-humans for another century leaves a lot to be desired.

 At best, Robertson handled a very sensitive issues with absolutely zero sensitivity.

* * *

HOWEVER . . . honestly . . .  I do not buy your explanation that Rev Wright was taken out of context and is not necessarily an anti-Semitic racist.  He has clearly proven that he IS an anti-Semitic racisst.

 

How many videos of me would you need addressing an audience of thousands of people spewing racist hatred before you would conclude that I was a racist?  One video would be enough.  Many, many times just makes the proof that much more complete.  Even if 99.999% of the time I was not spewing racist hatred and was full of sweetnes and light, if I was spewing racist hatred 0.001% of the time, that would be enough to conclude that I was a racist.

 Therefore, there is a political problem for Obama that he stayed in that church for 20 years and has been raising his kids in the same church that gave a "Lifetime Acheivement Award" to Louis Farrakhan.  In giving this award, Rev Wright praised Farrakhan for a lifetime of telling the truth.  That is EXTREMELY disturbing.  The fact that Wright did his and said this proves that those sermons that were played again and again and again were not aberations which were taken out of context.  He actually believes this crap.    Wright also travelled to Libya to give this award to Farrakhan in the presence of Libya's Kdafi (sp?). 

This is also extremely disturbing.

  • Wright is Anti-Seimitic as evidenced by the pro-Palestinian (anti-Israel) Op Ed whch he reprinted in the church's magazine. 
  • Wright is also anti-Semitic as evidenced by the rants that he had during sermons that were for sale off of the churches own website that were shown in the ABC News report.
  • Wright  is also anti-Semitic as evidenced by the "Lifetime Acheivement Award" to Louis Farrakhan. 

Staying in this church for 20 years shows extremely poor judgement on the part of Obama.    He has not even begun to adequately explain this.  This has caused a 7 point swing from Obama up over Hillary by 2 points to Hillary up over Obama by 5 points.

BUT . . . there is another possibility.  It could be that Obama believed none of this crap but he joined one of the largest black churches in South Chicago purely for street cred - for political purposes.  This would be a far less disturbing answer . . . BUT . . .  it would portray Obama as a big fake which would cause him to likely lose even more support than the "pastor disaster".  This would also explain why Obama will not completely disassociate himself from Wright.  That alternative would cause an even larger problem.

 Either way, Obama has a problem entirely of his own making.
 
Toady says:  Notice again the false choice that is presented...  Either Obama has shown poor judgement, sufficient to disqualify him to be president OR he joined the Wright's church for political street cred ....ie.  he is a big fake.  I should thank my dear friend for allowing me to choose. 
 
Also note that Chasby is not in the least interested in anything about Wright other than the snippets he has seen on TV.  He is not interested in the whole of the man and his ministry any more than Wright is interested in the totality of the recent history of America.  If Wright looked at the whole of our recent history then his anger would be shown false.... The same would happen to Chasby if he looked at the whole truth.
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Defending Jeremiah

 Chasby,
First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.

Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.

Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans.
P. Buchanon

 You know it is amazing.  Buchanon looks at the history of Blacks in America and he doesn't see anything wrong.  We took 600,000 blacks and turned them into 40 million freedom loving Christians.  It's all good.  Wright looks at America and sees nothing good… Stuck in 1955.  Both are wrong.  Obama said that explicitly.  Wright is wrong to see America as not changing… that doesn't mean it's all good.  America has not been the best country on earth for black folks… but that doesn't mean that America is essentially an immoral nation.

 America once believed in a genocidal manifest destiny.  We killed Indians as if they were so many buffalo.  We went to war with Mexico because American blood was shed on American soil.  Except that American soil was fifty miles south of the Mexican border.  That doesn't mean that the creation of empire in north America was evil. We escalated a war in Vietnam because of a lie.  We went to war in Iraq because of non-existent WMD.  That doesn't mean that America is the root of all that is bad in the world.

History is what it is.  America is what it is.  My country love it or leave it is not true patriotism.  My country right or wrong is not true patriotism.  It is important to speak the truth.

Rev Wright preached a sermon every week for 20 years.  Each sermon may have had 100 sentences.  52 weeks per year.  20 years.  How many sentences has he preached and how many sentences have you heard.  It doesn't count that you have heard the same sentence 50 times… like the Dean scream.  You have heard maybe five sentences… over and over and over and over again until it sounds like all 20,000 sentences.  But it isn't.

The sentences you have heard are evil, like the slavery was evil, like jim crow was evil, like calling a black man 2/3 human is evil.  But like all of that it isn't the whole story or even the most important part of the story.  Those five sentences may not be be truth, but truth is spoken in that church.

Certainly Wright is angry.  He was born in the same year as Emmit Till.  He saw the Freedom Riders.  He saw the strange fruit.  He saw innocent black men get convicted and executed while guilty white men laughed with the rigged juries.  He is angry and that anger is sin.  This is not an excuse, but a description.  I don't offer excuses for him any more than you would offer excuses for Jimmy Swaggart who still preaches today.  It is wrong for a sinner to be the head of a church, but of course he is not the only one.  What has he done?  Has he molested a child? Paid for prostitutes? Is he a homosexual who preaches hate for homosexuals from his pulpit.  Used the churches money to live a luxurious life style?  Taken drugs?

What has he DONE?

 

He has uttered a sentence:  God damn America.  He has called America The US of KKKA.  He has raged against his country.  And for republicans this is the ultimate sin… the ultimate stain… More serious than any of the sins of other preachers.  This stain cannot be exaggerated, it cannot be cleaned.  This sin cannot be forgiven.  This sin is contagious.  It spreads.  These five sentences are all that you need to know about the man.  A man who utters these sentences is evil.  He is a racist.  He hates.  He hates whites.  He hates America.   Any charitable work shrinks in insignificance to this stain.  This stain is on an entire church. The stain is on any person who hears the words and does not recoil.   This stain is on anyone who feels affection for Rev Wright.  This stain goes to the heart of all black churches, makes them similar to madrassas which teach and preach hatred.  This stain… these five sentences are all that is needed to make a man and a candidate radioactive.  Association with this stain makes a man unfit to hold public office.  

The reaction of republicans is politics at its worst.  The reaction of republicans is worse than the offense of Wright.  Remember what Ruffini said on Hugh Hewitt's blog?

----------------------

If they go further with this civility routine, they risk alienating conservatives in talk radio and the blogosphere who are doing the necessary work of defining Obama and rendering him just as radioactive with the base as Hillary…..

The challenge in modern Presidential campaign is not simply to paint your opponent as wrong on the issues, and to prevail in a civil debate. It is to render the opponent unacceptable to 48% of the electorate, and merely less preferable to 3%.

In this pursuit truth is irrelevant.  Educating the public is irrelevant.  Bringing the country together is undesired.  Just get an extra 1% and the rest of the country be damned… oh that's what Wright said isn't it….

Well, I haven't said it all and I haven't said it well enough, but what I have read and what I have heard from the right is wrong and it is sin.  They resurrect the past as if it is the present and fasely judge the whole by a part.  The people who categorically condemn Wright and his church ironically make the EXACT same mistake that Wright made.  They are guilty of EXACTLY the same sin.

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Toady's first and weakest defense of Obama and Wright


Of course I reject the God Damn America statements.  It is false that America invented AIDS.  It is right for him to leave his honorary position in Obama's campaign … fine. 
It is also wrong for Falwell to peddle the Clinton Chronicles on his Sunday morning religious program.  It is wrong to point the finger of blame at the ACLU and gays, saying they were to blame for 9/11.

There are crazy things said all over the place. 
So Wright said some things he shouldn't have said.

Therefore  what? 
McCain once said Falwell was an agent of intolerance, now he embraces Falwell and Hagee…  So what?

Are you honestly saying that Obama is not fit to be president because Jeremiah Wright was the one who brought him to Christ.
I am still a fan of Obama.  He will still get my vote. 

----------------------------------------

This failed to soothe the anger in my antagonist's heart:

---------------------------------------

SO . . . .

 

In other words the fact that Obama's denial that he NEVER heard such a racist, or hateful message from the Rev Jeremiah Wright doesn't even BEGIN to pass the smell test will not prevent you from voting for Obama.

Just think about it.   Not a single person in that congregations appeared to be "shocked" when Rev Wright was delivering these hateful, spiteful, racist messages in sermon after sermon after sermon.  In fact, most of the members of the congregation were eating it up.  They were loving it.  They were jumping up and down and clapping and shouting enthusiastically, etc, etc, etc.  This was obviously not an isolated "one time only thing" as was evidenced by the enthusiastic reaction of the members of the congregation.

 Obama's denial is quite simply a lie for political purposes.   Do you not agree that this is the case?

And yet . . . you are a believer and are going to vote for him regardless.

 Is that it?  If I amwrong, please tell me where and how I am wrong.

* * * *

I was not asking you if you personally disagreed with Wright hateful, spiteful, racist statements that the US got what they deserved on 9/11.  I assumed that you did.

I was also not asking if you personally disagreed with the hateful, racist, anti-Semitic statements from Louis Farrakhan.  I assumed that you did. 

I was also not asking you if you personally disagreed with Malcolm X's hateful, spiteful, racist statements that JFK deserved to be assassinated.  I assumed that you did.

My question is why did Obama go to this church for 20 years and call this hateful, racist bigot his friend and spiritual advisor and why was this man working on his campaign?

What does that say about Obama's belief system?  What does that say about Obama's character?  What does that say about Obama's tolerance for anti-Semitism?

IF . . . this were a Republican who was in Obama's position, this entire news story would be handled very, VERY differently.  The media would be going for that persons jugular.  But . . . Obama is a black liberal so Obama gets a pass.  He obviously gets a pass from the leftist, Mike Todd, as well. 

By the way, black conservatives get called "Uncle Tom's" and much worse.  Black conservatives (Thomas) get slandered with unsupported charges of sexual deviancy in their Supreme Court confirmation hearings.  Black conservatives are cartooned with huge lips (Rice) as if they were subservient slaves on Masta Bush's plantation.  Black conservatives are viciously attacked as being stupid or incompetent or selling out as well as other charges.  BUT . . . black liberals can get away with associations with the most vile, disgusting racist, anti-Semitic bigots out there and they get a free pass.  Such is political life in America.

I personally have a dream that one day people will be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.  Obviously you don't share that same dream.

Did you know that MLK Jr. was a Republican, by the way?   I am not surprised.

 I am surprised, however than nearly no one seems to know this.

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Obama's first response and Chasby's reply

Barack Obama

 
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On My Faith and My Church

Posted March 14, 2008 | 04:28 PM (EST)

 

The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He's drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.
Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.
Because these particular statements by Rev. Wright are so contrary to my own life and beliefs, a number of people have legitimately raised questions about the nature of my relationship with Rev. Wright and my membership in the church. Let me therefore provide some context.
As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It's a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.
Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.
The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.
Let me repeat what I've said earlier. All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country.
With Rev. Wright's retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss, III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good. And while Rev. Wright's statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States.
 
Chasby was in high dudgeon:
 
Did you actually hear Rev. Jeremiah's statements?  Did you see the highly positive response from the congregation.  I seriously DOUBT that these were the ONLY controversial statements that this guy has made.  No one appeared shocked.  They were eating it up.  I don't believe Obama and his statement even begins to pass the "smell test".  Those sermons were purchased on DVDs from the church.  They weren't ever considered controvesial enough to bother NOT selling to the public.  In his sermon the first Sunday after 9/11, the Rev stated basically that the US deserved what they got.  You mean that NO ONE bothered to mention to Obama the content of this sermon.  No.  This doesn't even begin to pass the "smell test".  If this were a Republican, you would be saying the exact same thing.  Why didn't Obama distance himself about 191/2 years ago?  Is it because he agrees with the Rev Jerimiah's positions?  Didn't Obama's staff even look into the Rev Jeremiah's sermons?  This has been a lurking issue for several months.
 
No this doesn't even begin to pass the "smell test".  you seem to be blinded.
 
 

 

 

Did you actually hear Rev Jeremiah's atements?
 

 
 

Did you see the highly positive response from the congregation?
 

 
 

I seriously DOUBT that these were the ONLY controversial statements that this guy has made.
 

 
 

No one appeared chocked.  They were eating it up.
 

 
 

I don't believe Obama and his statement doesn't begin to pass the "smell test".
 

 
 

These sermons were purchased on DVDs from the church.
 

 
 

They weren't ever considered controversial enough to bother NOT selling to the public.
 

 
 

In his sermon the first Sunday after 9/11, the Rev stated basically that the US dersevred what they got.
 

 
 

You mea that NO ONE bothered to mention to Obama the content of this sermon.
 

 
 

No.  This doesn't even begin to pass the "smell test".
 

If this were a Republican, you would be saying the exact same thing.
 

 
 

Why didn't Obama distance himself about 19 1/2 years ago??  Is it because he agrees with he Rev Jeremiah's positions?
 

 
 

Didn't Obama's staff even look nto the Rev Jeremiah's sermons?  This has been a lrking issue for several months.
 

 
 

No.  This doesn't even begin to pass the "smell test".
 

 
 

You seem to be blinded.


 

 

Did you actually hear Rev Jeremiah's atements?
 

 
 

Did you see the highly positive response from the congregation?
 

 
 

I seriously DOUBT that these were the ONLY controversial statements that this guy has made.
 

 
 

No one appeared chocked.  They were eating it up.
 

 
 

I don't believe Obama and his statement doesn't begin to pass the "smell test".
 

 
 

These sermons were purchased on DVDs from the church.
 

 
 

They weren't ever considered controversial enough to bother NOT selling to the public.
 

 
 

In his sermon the first Sunday after 9/11, the Rev stated basically that the US dersevred what they got.
 

 
 

You mea that NO ONE bothered to mention to Obama the content of this sermon.
 

 
 

No.  This doesn't even begin to pass the "smell test".
 

If this were a Republican, you would be saying the exact same thing.
 

 
 

Why didn't Obama distance himself about 19 1/2 years ago??  Is it because he agrees with he Rev Jeremiah's positions?
 

 
 

Didn't Obama's staff even look nto the Rev Jeremiah's sermons?  This has been a lrking issue for several months.
 

 
 

No.  This doesn't even begin to pass the "smell test".
 

 
 

You seem to be blinded.

 
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The Wright debate: part 1 Chasby starts

Let's start close to the beginning.  Chasby sends me an article by Ronald Kessler.  I won't reprint the entire thing, just the part Chasby highlighted.
 
In a sermon delivered at Howard University, Barack Obama's longtime minister, friend and adviser blamed America for starting the AIDS virus, training professional killers, importing drugs and creating a racist society that would never elect a black candidate president....
Mr. Wright thundered on: "America is still the No. 1 killer in the world. . .
Mr. Wright said: "We started the AIDS virus . . . We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. . . ."
Considering this view of America, it's not surprising that in December Mr. Wright's church gave an award to Louis Farrakhan for lifetime achievement. In the church magazine, Trumpet, Mr. Wright spoke glowingly of the Nation of Islam leader. "His depth on analysis [sic] when it comes to the racial ills of this nation is astounding and eye-opening," Mr. Wright said of Mr. Farrakhan. "He brings a perspective that is helpful and honest."...
Concluding, Mr. Wright said: "We started the AIDS virus . . . We are only able to maintain our level of living by making sure that Third World people live in grinding poverty. . . ."
 Trumpet is owned and produced by Mr. Wright's church out of the church's offices, and Mr. Wright's daughters serve as publisher and executive editor
Mr. Wright's statements denouncing Israel have not been qualified in any way. Mr. Obama nonetheless told the Jewish leaders that the award to Mr. Farrakhan "showed a lack of sensitivity to the Jewish community." That is an understatement...
As for Mr. Wright's repeated comments blaming America for the 9/11 attacks because of what Mr. Wright calls its racist and violent policies, Mr. Obama has said it sounds as if the minister was trying to be "provocative."
Hearing Mr. Wright's venomous and paranoid denunciations of this country, the vast majority of Americans would walk out. Instead, Mr. Obama and his wife Michelle have presumably sat through numerous similar sermons by Mr. Wright.
The media have largely ignored Mr. Obama's close association with Mr. Wright. This raises legitimate questions about Mr. Obama's fundamental beliefs about his country. Those questions deserve a clearer answer than Mr. Obama has provided so far.


Toady says,
 
I note a couple of things.  First the clearly fatuous claim that the media have "largely ignored Mr. Obama's close association with Mr. Wright.
 
Second, It took me quite a while to respond properly to this as the comments by Wright were clearly jarring.  It is not sufficient to simply state they were taken out of context, even if they were.  G-D AMERICA is more than harsh.  So it took a while for me to come to grips with this.
 
more to come.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Chasby

Chasby will serve as my foil in these postings.  He will be loved by any who are likely to find their way here.  In this melodrama the audience will cheer every time Chasby speaks and will throw peanuts while booing at the words of your long suffering host.
 
So with no further ado:  I give you Chasby
 
Rev. Wright reprints racist anti-Semitic op-eds in the church's magazine that his two daughters edit.  He just ran one of these in the December 2007 issue. 

Just admit the obvious, Toady . . . 

Wright is very clearly a radical , Blame-America-First, anti-Semitic, racist.  

This is extremely obvious. How much more proof do you need OR . . . 

Is this another one of those cases where all of the proof in the world still wouldn't cause you to change your mind??!!

Which is it?

Thanks
 
If anyone remembers me in my former incarnation (this is unlikely at best)... you will know that I love rhetoric, political rhetoric especially.  Here we have a classic example of a false choice.  Chasby posits that either he is right or I am a close minded bigot.  (What's that Chasby, I should have used a Boolean "and" in that sentence")  This is what passes for a killer argument in conservative circles these days.  I am sure my dear antagonist will provide us with many many examples.
 
I will discuss Rev Wright in a later posting
 
regards,
 
Toady
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If at first you don't succeed

It was a sad event being banned in Boston.  I tried to keep the music alive, but my grief made that impossible.  I am pleased to say that at long last I have found closure and, more importantly, new voices.
 
I may be banned in Boston... but toadstools flourish in many places.
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Cruelty and Savagery

This was once posted on Townhall.com:

"The anti-torture argument sits on a fragile branch of moral vanity. The torture opponents’ entire premise rests on the erroneous notion that one can successfully wage war without cruelty and savagery. I wish they were right. But they’re not."

Today ABC is reporting that one particulary piece of cruelty:  waterboarding,  is no longer practiced by the United States.  Brian Ross reports:

"The controversial interrogation technique known as water-boarding... has been banned by CIA director Gen. Michael Hayden...

The officials say Hayden made the decision at the recommendation of his deputy, Steve Kappes, and received approval from the White House to remove water-boarding from the list of approved interrogation techniques first authorized by a presidential finding in 2002."


The officials say the decision was made sometime last year but has never been publicly disclosed.

-------------------------

This technique gives pain equivalent to organ failure and death and would be judged to be torture were it ever used by a foreign power on Americans. 

Nevertheless Bush says America does not torture.  Petraeus goes further saying torture is not legal, not useful and not necessary.  Call it moral vanity, call it anything you like, but simply note the decision was made long before the surge began.  Anyone who argues that the surge is a military success must conclude that Gen. Petraeus is quite capable of successfully waging war without the cruelty and savagery of waterboarding.

Good.

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Promise Kept

The democrats promised to pass legislation to clean up the budgetary abuses that have been common over the last decade or so.  Today the bill was signed into law.  Kos is reporting on the provisions of the bill:

  • Senators will no longer be able to take gifts or junkets from lobbyists.
  • Lobbyists will be required to report their activities quarterly to the House clerk and Senate secretary. (Now, just semi-annually.)  And these reports must be filed electronically (including lobbying by representatives of foreign governments) -- which make them easier for us to search and analyze.
  • Senate spouses will be banned from the lobbying business, unless they were lobbyists before their spouse’s most recent election or before they married a senator.
  • Senators and their top aides will have to notify the Ethics Committee within three days when they begin negotiating new jobs.
  • The K Street Project is dead
  • Earmark sponsors must be listed in appropriations committee reports.  And Senators will be able to attack earmarks on the floor with a point of order triggering an hour of debate, and it will take a three-fifths majority vote to retain the provision.
  • "Dead of night" provisions can also be challenged with a point of order, and unless a three-fifths majority wants to keep such a provision, the offending language will be removed.
  • New restrictions on free travel would ban many trips but allow senators to enjoy one-day journeys at others’ expense. (Also still legal: trips financed by nonprofits and universities.)
  • Say goodbye to infinite, anonymous holds.  Senators will still be able to anonymously block a request for unanimous consent, but only for six days. After that, the senator’s name would be disclosed unless the objection was withdrawn.
  • Slow down the revolving door -- after Dec. 31, senators, top aides and top administration officials would have to wait two years after leaving office before lobbying Congress.
  • When former members of the House or Senate begin to lobby, they will lose their access to their former chamber’s floor and gym.
  • The FEC will be drafting new regulations requiring campaign committees to report bundled contributions from lobbyists and their political committees that total at least $15,000 during any six-month period.  (The next step: disclosure by all bundlers.)
  • If a lobbyist (or a lobbyist's client) is throwing a big soirée at your party's convention ... you can't go, unless you're the nominee.
  •  


    This is very good legislation that any republican interested in lowering government spending will celebrate.  It was the first bill introduced in the Senate after Harry Reid became Majority Leader.

    Thanks Harry.

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    I never voted for Clinton


    Honest, I never did.   

     "When I was in England, I experimented with marijuana a time or two, and I didn't like it.  I didn't inhale and never tried it again"

    This is without a doubt the dumbest statement I have ever heard.  Of course he didn't enjoy it.... how could you possibly enjoy it if you DIDN'T INHALE !?

    I voted libertarian in those years:  Marrou and Brown.   I like libertarians for a number of reasons.  Greenspan just gave me one more. 

    From the WSJ:

    Mr. Greenspan, who calls himself a "lifelong libertarian Republican," writes that he advised the White House to veto some bills to curb "out-of-control" spending while the Republicans controlled Congress. He says President Bush's failure to do so "was a major mistake." Republicans in Congress, he writes, "swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose....

    Mr. Greenspan writes that when President Bush chose Dick Cheney as vice president and Paul O'Neill as treasury secretary -- both colleagues from the Gerald Ford administration, during which Mr. Greenspan was chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers -- he "indulged in a bit of fantasy" that this would be the government that would have resulted if Mr. Ford hadn't lost to Jimmy Carter in 1976. But Mr. Greenspan discovered that in the Bush White House, the "political operation was far more dominant" than in Mr. Ford's. "Little value was placed on rigorous economic policy debate or the weighing of long-term consequences," he writes.

    From serving under so many presidents, Mr. Greenspan concludes that there's something abnormal about anyone willing to do what it takes to get the job. Mr. Ford, he writes, "was as close to normal as you get in a president, but he was never elected." The Watergate tapes, he says, show Richard Nixon as "an extremely smart man who is sadly paranoid, misanthropic and cynical." He recalls telling someone who had accused Nixon of anti-Semitism that he "wasn't exclusively anti-Semitic. He was anti-Semitic, anti-Italian, anti-Greek, anti-Slovak. I don't know anybody he was pro."

    Ronald Reagan's ability to instantly tap one-liners and anecdotes in support of a particular policy represented an "odd form of intelligence." He describes Bill Clinton as "a fellow information hound" with "a consistent, disciplined focus on long-term economic growth" whose relationship with Monica Lewinsky "made me feel disappointed and sad."

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    McCain on MoveOn


    Time magazine is reporting that John McCain was talking about MoveOn's full page ad in the NY Times yesterday.  He said:

    "It's disgraceful, it's got to be retracted and condemned by the Democrats and MoveOn.org ought to be thrown out of this country, my friends."

    So he wants to allow 12 million illegal aliens to stay here, but wants to deport 4 million democrats.
    I'm thinking he just might win the republican nomination after all.
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